Hi,
Isaac's Innsbruck : alto part, measures 17-18 (depending on the edition).
Several editions have a half note tied to a dotted quarter.
This is a binary piece. According to my basic knowledge of white mensural notation, I can't see how this value could have been written!
If an editor of one of these editions reads this forum, I'd be very interested to know about this "magnum mysterium"
About Isaac's Innsbruck
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
Alain,
I would guess that in the original source(s) the two notes are untied, as in the latest edition by Norbert Lederbauer. You're surely not suggesting that some contributors would work from a modern edition, with all the copyright problems that might entail, rather than going back to the original source ?
DF
I would guess that in the original source(s) the two notes are untied, as in the latest edition by Norbert Lederbauer. You're surely not suggesting that some contributors would work from a modern edition, with all the copyright problems that might entail, rather than going back to the original source ?
DF
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
DaveF, I'm not sugesting anything, it was quite a sincere question :
- I think this value ratio 7/8 + 1/8 can't be written in mensural notation ;
- Ok for your answer according to which there were two notes in the original ;
- then we must admit that this tie has been added at some moment by someone ;
- now I'm still surprised : is it just a blunt, or an undocumented decision made because there is something special in the fasimile ? after all, a tie is not added every time there is (probably) a semibreve followed by a dotted minim (or a minor color). The editor(s) had perhaps their reasons to do so ?!
- I think this value ratio 7/8 + 1/8 can't be written in mensural notation ;
- Ok for your answer according to which there were two notes in the original ;
- then we must admit that this tie has been added at some moment by someone ;
- now I'm still surprised : is it just a blunt, or an undocumented decision made because there is something special in the fasimile ? after all, a tie is not added every time there is (probably) a semibreve followed by a dotted minim (or a minor color). The editor(s) had perhaps their reasons to do so ?!
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
A friend who has seen the original confirms:
"I've seen the big old German book, and it has no tie, but a
repeated note, with a repeated word. I don't think you can
write it the way it appears nowadays."
I wonder if modern editors/singers prefer the revised underlay because it's truer to the word accents if you are used to feeling rhythm in even measures. Perhaps this is something that Isaac could not do under prior notation constraints, or did not wish to do (e.g. if he wanted an off-beat accent?).
"I've seen the big old German book, and it has no tie, but a
repeated note, with a repeated word. I don't think you can
write it the way it appears nowadays."
I wonder if modern editors/singers prefer the revised underlay because it's truer to the word accents if you are used to feeling rhythm in even measures. Perhaps this is something that Isaac could not do under prior notation constraints, or did not wish to do (e.g. if he wanted an off-beat accent?).
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
Thank you very much, that's quite clear now!
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Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
From my short experience I must say that these situations are very common: aditional notes, ties, dots, etc. Is it a print book or a manuscript? Sometimes the copist or even the printer makes a mistake by adding more notes (or other signs). I think that comparing several sources could be a safe solution.
Greetings,
L.H.
Greetings,
L.H.
Luís C. F. Henriques (University of Évora)
“Ipse vero magister Perotinus fecit quadrupla óptima […] cum habundantia colorum armonicae artis…”
Anonymous 4 in [Musica] (fol. 70v)
Atrium Musicologicum
“Ipse vero magister Perotinus fecit quadrupla óptima […] cum habundantia colorum armonicae artis…”
Anonymous 4 in [Musica] (fol. 70v)
Atrium Musicologicum
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
At this very moment I can't access cpdl! But I remember there are 2 or 3 editions, all showing this tie.
It's not necessary to mention editors's names, who don't give their sources ; Vaarky knows someone having seen the original, and that's ok.
Thanks to everyone!
It's not necessary to mention editors's names, who don't give their sources ; Vaarky knows someone having seen the original, and that's ok.
Thanks to everyone!
Re: About Isaac's Innsbruck
What impressed me most is that he remembered it! This is a person who sight-sings through at least 2.5 hours of sheet music every week, most of it stuff he's never seen before. I would not remember that type of detail if I had seen that piece just last week (things really blur together for me given how much I do just sight-singing), but this person has an amazing memory (and probably saw that piece many times).