O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: 23 Jul 2009 20:54
O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hello folks,
I'm just enquiring to see if anybody knows how to get hold of a copy of the above for SATB & single piano (there are double piano arrangements but we only have one)
I'm a new member here and look forward to corresponding with you.
Kind regards,
Grant
I'm just enquiring to see if anybody knows how to get hold of a copy of the above for SATB & single piano (there are double piano arrangements but we only have one)
I'm a new member here and look forward to corresponding with you.
Kind regards,
Grant
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hi Grant,
It's Max here (the one who answered your email about login problems - I'm happy they are solved).
Carl Orff died in 1982, so his works are still copyrighted. Orff's scores cannot be published at CPDL, so you should look for commercial scores. If I correctly remember, Orff himself wrote a version for two pianos and percussions, that's why the double piano version is so popular. But I think single piano reductions are also commercially available. For example, this version:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Car ... na/1203363
seems to have SATB parts with single piano accompaniment.
Max
It's Max here (the one who answered your email about login problems - I'm happy they are solved).
Carl Orff died in 1982, so his works are still copyrighted. Orff's scores cannot be published at CPDL, so you should look for commercial scores. If I correctly remember, Orff himself wrote a version for two pianos and percussions, that's why the double piano version is so popular. But I think single piano reductions are also commercially available. For example, this version:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Car ... na/1203363
seems to have SATB parts with single piano accompaniment.
Max
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Grant, if you decide to purchase the score from Sheet Music Plus, it would be great if you could access the site via the link on the ChoralWiki sidebar. If you do this, CPDL receives 8% of the sale from SMP for the affilation. Thanks!
It would be great if all the SMP links on the forums included the special code which tells the SMP website that the visitor has come from ChoralWiki.
It would be great if all the SMP links on the forums included the special code which tells the SMP website that the visitor has come from ChoralWiki.
Rob Nottingham
CPDL Administrator
CPDL Administrator
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2009 20:54
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hi Choralia (Max),
Many thanks for your posting and for your help in getting me logged in.
I have contacted SMP and they assure me that they only have a 'double piano' copy.
They gave me the number for Schotts but when I rang them I got a recorded message. I left them a request message and asked them to contact me if they had a single copy edition however, they have not replied yet.
I will ring them again on Monday.
Once again, many thanks.
Kind regards,
Grant
Many thanks for your posting and for your help in getting me logged in.
I have contacted SMP and they assure me that they only have a 'double piano' copy.
They gave me the number for Schotts but when I rang them I got a recorded message. I left them a request message and asked them to contact me if they had a single copy edition however, they have not replied yet.
I will ring them again on Monday.
Once again, many thanks.
Kind regards,
Grant
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: 23 Jul 2009 20:54
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hi Bobnotts,
Many thanks for your reply.
Could I refer you to my posting to 'Choralia' ..... This will give you the gist of the situation as it stands at the moment.
I have taken on board your comments with regards to the 'link' with SMP and should I purchase from them in the future (which is certain) I shall use the link mentioned.
Many thanks for your reply.
Kind regards,
Grant. (what a brilliant forum!)
Many thanks for your reply.
Could I refer you to my posting to 'Choralia' ..... This will give you the gist of the situation as it stands at the moment.
I have taken on board your comments with regards to the 'link' with SMP and should I purchase from them in the future (which is certain) I shall use the link mentioned.
Many thanks for your reply.
Kind regards,
Grant. (what a brilliant forum!)
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
I'm a little bit surprised, because the SMP website shows a couple of page samples, and it looks like a (single) piano version (even though it may be a bit complicated to play - I have no music education so I'm not sure). Furthermore, the front page shows the term "klavierauszug", that literally means "piano score", but in practice, to the best of my (limited) knowledge, this term is used to indicate a vocal score with (single) piano accompaniment.Grantallen wrote:I have contacted SMP and they assure me that they only have a 'double piano' copy.
Some time ago I contacted Schott via email for some copyright reasons related to this work, and they regularly replied to me, so I hope you'll get more info directly from them.
Max
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2009 20:54
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hi Max,
Many thanks for your post.
I did have a look at the score and it did seem to be a single piano copy.
You are right; the piano score looks a bit of a handful! The bass line can be played with the left, but then both hands are needed to play the chordal work on the top (not impossible but you would have to be quite agile to race from left to right in such a short time).
I have been lucky enough to borrow the bass and tenor 'score' (Vocal, circa 1936) from a friend and it is quite unique! The time signatures are marked above the stave (as opposed to within the stave) and there seems to be a plethora of 'scizura' (Cut) marks throughout the piece (//). The whole piece seems to be written in some sort of quasi medievil standard.
I wonder whether he meant to write it with such ancient markings (in keeping with its origins) or whether he wrote like that anyway?
I don't know enough about Orff to confirm the above one way or the other but I will do some research and; if you are interested, will let you know.
Many thanks for getting back to me Max.
I send to you my kind regards,
Grant.
Many thanks for your post.
I did have a look at the score and it did seem to be a single piano copy.
You are right; the piano score looks a bit of a handful! The bass line can be played with the left, but then both hands are needed to play the chordal work on the top (not impossible but you would have to be quite agile to race from left to right in such a short time).
I have been lucky enough to borrow the bass and tenor 'score' (Vocal, circa 1936) from a friend and it is quite unique! The time signatures are marked above the stave (as opposed to within the stave) and there seems to be a plethora of 'scizura' (Cut) marks throughout the piece (//). The whole piece seems to be written in some sort of quasi medievil standard.
I wonder whether he meant to write it with such ancient markings (in keeping with its origins) or whether he wrote like that anyway?
I don't know enough about Orff to confirm the above one way or the other but I will do some research and; if you are interested, will let you know.
Many thanks for getting back to me Max.
I send to you my kind regards,
Grant.
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- Posts: 19
- Joined: 10 Jan 2009 01:40
- Location: Leipzig, Germany
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Dear all,
as far as I know (after singing this extraordinary piece a dozen times and studying the score very carefully) there is no edition for a single piano to substitute this massive orchestra. In fact, "Klavierauszug" means piano reduction, and the one available is not by Orff himself. It is not intended as a score, for it lacks the percussion parts. I owe Orff's edition for two pianos and percussion containing Orff's autograph stating the following:
This edition of the "Carmina burana" with accompaniment of two pianos, kettledrums and percussion is meant for concert performances at schools and amateur music societies, where an orchestra isn't at their disposal. Therewith I'd like to meet the desires of wide circles. June 1956, Carl Orff.
Indeed, it is more than a handful My score shows both piano parts playing nearly the same as it is printed in the piano reduction (at least over the first four measures), but with some differences: the right hand has to play one octave higher, while the left hand staves show additional (lowest octave) notes following the bass line down over the first two measures. The players have to use both hands!
Orff intentionally used this notation, and all markings are not accidentally written. "Medieval" is a good parallel to the content of his masterpiece
Enjoy the music and the lyrics – it's beautiful and ironic!
Yours, Robert
as far as I know (after singing this extraordinary piece a dozen times and studying the score very carefully) there is no edition for a single piano to substitute this massive orchestra. In fact, "Klavierauszug" means piano reduction, and the one available is not by Orff himself. It is not intended as a score, for it lacks the percussion parts. I owe Orff's edition for two pianos and percussion containing Orff's autograph stating the following:
This edition of the "Carmina burana" with accompaniment of two pianos, kettledrums and percussion is meant for concert performances at schools and amateur music societies, where an orchestra isn't at their disposal. Therewith I'd like to meet the desires of wide circles. June 1956, Carl Orff.
Indeed, it is more than a handful My score shows both piano parts playing nearly the same as it is printed in the piano reduction (at least over the first four measures), but with some differences: the right hand has to play one octave higher, while the left hand staves show additional (lowest octave) notes following the bass line down over the first two measures. The players have to use both hands!
Orff intentionally used this notation, and all markings are not accidentally written. "Medieval" is a good parallel to the content of his masterpiece
Enjoy the music and the lyrics – it's beautiful and ironic!
Yours, Robert
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: 23 Jul 2009 20:54
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hello Robert,
Many thanks for your reply.
I am also entranced by this superb music. I consider the chordal content, allthough difficult physically, is actually quite simple but the dischords are used to such a superb effect that one cannot help but be bewitched!
I am intrigued by the fact that Orff actually wrote the markings in quasi 'medieval' text and that he did so intentionally! (Thanks for the confirmation of that)
I (and my choir) find it almost physically impossible to follow his direction 'Senza cresc - sempre pp' when all one wants to do is 'poco a poco cresc'!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know he wrote several other pieces ( some of which I am not aquanted) but Carmina Burana must be his best.
I personally believe that his 'tangent' towards teaching children robbed us all of his incredible talent (allthough I suspect that hundreds of thousands of children would disagree with me)
Once again Robert, many thanks for your posting.
I send to you my kind regards and best wishes,
Grant.
Many thanks for your reply.
I am also entranced by this superb music. I consider the chordal content, allthough difficult physically, is actually quite simple but the dischords are used to such a superb effect that one cannot help but be bewitched!
I am intrigued by the fact that Orff actually wrote the markings in quasi 'medieval' text and that he did so intentionally! (Thanks for the confirmation of that)
I (and my choir) find it almost physically impossible to follow his direction 'Senza cresc - sempre pp' when all one wants to do is 'poco a poco cresc'!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know he wrote several other pieces ( some of which I am not aquanted) but Carmina Burana must be his best.
I personally believe that his 'tangent' towards teaching children robbed us all of his incredible talent (allthough I suspect that hundreds of thousands of children would disagree with me)
Once again Robert, many thanks for your posting.
I send to you my kind regards and best wishes,
Grant.
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- Posts: 19
- Joined: 10 Jan 2009 01:40
- Location: Leipzig, Germany
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hello Grant!
It's absolutely worth it to have a close look at the score! The very first trap awaits conductors in the third measure of the entire work, where Orff's prescription is a "poco stringendo". He simply doesn't want to slow down there!!! You can listen to 99% of all available recordings: they do not, what Orff wants. Sure, music isn't pure mathematics, but Orff is still a contemporary composer who was fascinated by rhythm and simplicity. We should follow his score for it contains all necessary information: not too much and not too little. There are so many people out there researching on authentic performance of ancient music, while we are ignoring written down indications by last century composers …
Anyway, I had the great pleasure to perform the Carmina with a conductor who studied the piece with Orff himself – one of the never-to-forget highlights of my choral life! Did I mention before that Orff wrote down every single not as he intended??? There are a number of hidden jokes between the (staff) lines
As a listening experience I can recommend the "Catulli carmina", or even better, the whole "Trionfi" (containing "Carmina burana", "Catulli carmina", and "Trionfo di Afrodite"). Excellent recording and worth the money: http://www.amazon.com/Carl-Orff-Trionfi ... 0000035OC/ Also worth listening: "Der Mond" (The Moon), often together with "Die Kluge" (The Wise) http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Kluge-Mond-H ... 0000035PI/
Still it is said, that Orff (after he had finished the Carmina burana) then instructed his publisher to shred all his previous compositions saying: "The Carmina now is my opus 1!"
All best wishes,
Robert
I would put the stress on "physically difficult" in case you mean "physical condition" or stamina or endurance or whatever one needs to stand this breathtaking [sic!] opus More than once my knees were shaking after the final movement ... depending on the size of the choir and the orchestra and the venue – even after performing the "light" version for two pianos!I consider the chordal content, allthough difficult physically, is actually quite simple but the dischords are used to such a superb effect that one cannot help but be bewitched!
Yessssss, these are cruel indications *hehe* But be assured, that this is Orff's intention. He wouldn't have marked it that way if he had wanted the musicians to do what you describe. He knew very well that everyone would do a (natural) crescendo towards a forte cue, but he strictly wants to suppress this for the sake of the greatest effects (a bit like Haydn with his "surprise symphony"). Besides this he accurately notes tempi, and they follow the same scheme over the whole Carmina: start moderate, accelerate the second stanza and finally run through the third verse. He even does this within movements with multiple stanzas (and they share much of this work). An excellent example is No. 5 "Ecce gratum": each stanza is divided in three sections. While each section accelerates, every stanza does, too! You can look it up:I (and my choir) find it almost physically impossible to follow his direction 'Senza cresc - sempre pp' when all one wants to do is 'poco a poco cresc'!!!!!!!!!!!!
- 120 - 132 - 144
- 132 - 144 - 152
- 144 - 152 - 160
It's absolutely worth it to have a close look at the score! The very first trap awaits conductors in the third measure of the entire work, where Orff's prescription is a "poco stringendo". He simply doesn't want to slow down there!!! You can listen to 99% of all available recordings: they do not, what Orff wants. Sure, music isn't pure mathematics, but Orff is still a contemporary composer who was fascinated by rhythm and simplicity. We should follow his score for it contains all necessary information: not too much and not too little. There are so many people out there researching on authentic performance of ancient music, while we are ignoring written down indications by last century composers …
Anyway, I had the great pleasure to perform the Carmina with a conductor who studied the piece with Orff himself – one of the never-to-forget highlights of my choral life! Did I mention before that Orff wrote down every single not as he intended??? There are a number of hidden jokes between the (staff) lines
As a listening experience I can recommend the "Catulli carmina", or even better, the whole "Trionfi" (containing "Carmina burana", "Catulli carmina", and "Trionfo di Afrodite"). Excellent recording and worth the money: http://www.amazon.com/Carl-Orff-Trionfi ... 0000035OC/ Also worth listening: "Der Mond" (The Moon), often together with "Die Kluge" (The Wise) http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Kluge-Mond-H ... 0000035PI/
Still it is said, that Orff (after he had finished the Carmina burana) then instructed his publisher to shred all his previous compositions saying: "The Carmina now is my opus 1!"
All best wishes,
Robert
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
How lucky for you to have to worked with a conductor that worked with Orff. And indeed, many jokes lurk underneath the neat, ordered appearances of Carl Orff's scores...Robert Urmann wrote:Anyway, I had the great pleasure to perform the Carmina with a conductor who studied the piece with Orff himself – one of the never-to-forget highlights of my choral life! Did I mention before that Orff wrote down every single not as he intended??? ;-) There are a number of hidden jokes between the (staff) lines :-)
As a listening experience I can recommend the "Catulli carmina", or even better, the whole "Trionfi" (containing "Carmina burana", "Catulli carmina", and "Trionfo di Afrodite").
I consider myself privileged to have participated in the first Australian performance of the complete "Trionfi", across two performances a week apart (Burana in one, Catulli and Afrodite in the other). I'd say Trionfo is the hidden gem of the triptych: aside from the ecstatic soprano and tenor solos – where Orff goes to the extent of musically depicting how a bride and groom go about celebrating their nuptials! – there is a superb chorus movement, Invocazione dell'Imeneo, which is rather like "In taberna quando sumus" in its bold, extrovert character; and at the very end there is the "Apparizione di Afrodite" – literally, the appearance of the goddess of love, Aphrodite – to which Orff provides the musical equivalent of the skies being torn open as the Goddess bursts out into the real world. Heard once: never forgotten!
There's plenty of good recordings of the Carmina Burana, but not so many of Catulli and Afrodite. I can warmly recommend a superb recording on EMI by Franz-Welser Möst with the Munich Radio Orchestra and Mozart-Choir of Linz.
Regards, Philip
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Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Ah meine freund Robert,
Ich hatte gewohnt (????) in Deutschland fur ganz acht jare (arbeiten) ((Musicalisch))
Irst mal ich muss sagen: ............ Ich habe zu viel vergessen (schreiben) Die letzten mal im Deutschland war 1990!
Sprache; keine problem! Abe schreiben ..............unmoglisch!
Ich war ein beruf (Profi) musica (auch lehrer) im west Deutschland (vor 1988) und es war SPASS,SPASS,SPASS!
Normalaweiss ich war ein gaste spiele mit die gute deutche 'BIG BANDS' abe ein mal ich hatte ein schallplaten gemacht mit die Britischen Royal Air Force capelle (Gute Militarisch Orchestra im Rheindahlen) ((Monchengladbach)) Und die haupt 'Track' war Veni Veni, In Trutina und O Fortuna! (Wenig gelt abe viel spass)
Ich bin jetz 'rentner' abe immer spass mit music!
Ich glaube ich muss jetz English sprechen (kan ich nicht mehr erinen)
I hope you could understand my writing .......... I know it is bad but I feel that it is respectfull to try and corresponde in other peoples language!
I thank you for your posting and found it very interesting.
I send to you my kind regards and very best wishes,
Grant.
Ich hatte gewohnt (????) in Deutschland fur ganz acht jare (arbeiten) ((Musicalisch))
Irst mal ich muss sagen: ............ Ich habe zu viel vergessen (schreiben) Die letzten mal im Deutschland war 1990!
Sprache; keine problem! Abe schreiben ..............unmoglisch!
Ich war ein beruf (Profi) musica (auch lehrer) im west Deutschland (vor 1988) und es war SPASS,SPASS,SPASS!
Normalaweiss ich war ein gaste spiele mit die gute deutche 'BIG BANDS' abe ein mal ich hatte ein schallplaten gemacht mit die Britischen Royal Air Force capelle (Gute Militarisch Orchestra im Rheindahlen) ((Monchengladbach)) Und die haupt 'Track' war Veni Veni, In Trutina und O Fortuna! (Wenig gelt abe viel spass)
Ich bin jetz 'rentner' abe immer spass mit music!
Ich glaube ich muss jetz English sprechen (kan ich nicht mehr erinen)
I hope you could understand my writing .......... I know it is bad but I feel that it is respectfull to try and corresponde in other peoples language!
I thank you for your posting and found it very interesting.
I send to you my kind regards and very best wishes,
Grant.
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
HI there I am MD of a small choral group who perform one main concert annualy in aid of charity We arre desperate to have a go at O Fortuna but do no have the whrewithall to have an orchestral accompiament I do not feel that one or even 2 pianos will do this piece justice Does anyone out there know how or where I could get an orhestral backing to this from?????
Regards to all
Ian
Regards to all
Ian
Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Lost the thread of this but if it helps and I have absolutely no idea where it came from I have a single piano arrnagement of this I have been looking for various arrangement for weeks and weeks and found it on my hard drive so dont know how long its been there !!!!
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Re: O Fortuna (Carmina Burana)
Hello Ian,
I don't think you will find an orchestral backing track for Carmina. I got around the problem by sourcing the piano copy (from the library) and arranged the piece from that. Allthough I do not have an orchestra, I do have nevertheless a modern digital keyboard which I am able to record on. My particular keyboard (the TYROS 2) has hundreds of superb voices and I was able to create a very acceptable orchestral sound!(including Brass etc) Ideally this should be played through an amplification system however, the Tyros 2 can produce a quite good volume on its own.
Once recorded, you can rehearse to your hearts content however; I must say that the difficulty is, is to keep the choir in tempo throughout! Remember the digital recording won't wait for anyone!
Good luck anyway,
Grant.
I don't think you will find an orchestral backing track for Carmina. I got around the problem by sourcing the piano copy (from the library) and arranged the piece from that. Allthough I do not have an orchestra, I do have nevertheless a modern digital keyboard which I am able to record on. My particular keyboard (the TYROS 2) has hundreds of superb voices and I was able to create a very acceptable orchestral sound!(including Brass etc) Ideally this should be played through an amplification system however, the Tyros 2 can produce a quite good volume on its own.
Once recorded, you can rehearse to your hearts content however; I must say that the difficulty is, is to keep the choir in tempo throughout! Remember the digital recording won't wait for anyone!
Good luck anyway,
Grant.