There is only one registration in cpdl for Josquin Desprez (1440 - 1521). You can find it under the title IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI. The name of the composer there is written DES PREZ.
You cannot find a registration under the correct name of the composer. What ist the way to change?
Josquin Desprez
Re: Josquin Desprez
Hi Gunter. There is a page called "Josquin Desprez" but it redirects to "Josquin des Prez". On what basis do you believe the composer's name is actually "Josquin Desprez" and not "Josquin des Prez"?
Rob
Rob
Rob Nottingham
CPDL Administrator
CPDL Administrator
Re: Josquin Desprez
His name hasn't been written always the same way, I think - thus the current "correct" spelling is somewhat arbitrary.
BTW, I've been told once that In Te Domine speravi was by another Josquin, who was named Josquin d'Ascanio,
different from Desprez or des Prez. To make things still more complex, Deprez is supposed to have known cardinal D'Ascanio.
BTW, I've been told once that In Te Domine speravi was by another Josquin, who was named Josquin d'Ascanio,
different from Desprez or des Prez. To make things still more complex, Deprez is supposed to have known cardinal D'Ascanio.
Re: Josquin Desprez
"Josquin D'Ascanio" is also the same "Josquin" that Ottaviano Petrucci cited as the composer of El Grillo. But both works (frottolas) are routinely attributed to Josquin the priest, not some other "Josquin". In the case of "In te Domine" it is thought that the version Petrucci printed might have been copied incorrectly by at least one intermediate scribe, since there are few uncharacteristic slips of parallel fifths.
The spelling of "des Prez" or "Desprez" is more or less entirely arbitrary, when you bear in mind that it is a *descriptor* ("the priest") rather than a surname, much like Jacob Clemens' tag of *non papa* ("not the pope"): Josquin was famous enough as a musician to be simply referred to by his first name without ambiguity. There is considerable debate about what his surname might have been. As for whether the discrepancy matters, I merely note that modern writers are infinitely fussier about orthography than their 15th century counterparts were. The CPDL page name is the same as the Library of Congress keyword, whereas the last time I checked I think Grove's Dictionary preferred "Desprez". An uncharitable conductor whom I know would point out at this stage the well-worn cliché: build a bridge, and get over it.
I take it that people *do* know there is an acrostic in the motet Illibata Dei virgo nutrix:
Illibata Dei virgo nutrix
Olimpi tu regis o genitrix
Sola parens verbi puerpera
Que fuisti Eve reparatrix
Viri nephas tuta mediatrix
Illud clara luce dat scriptura
Nata nati alma genitura
Des ut leta musorum factura
Prevaleat ymis et sit ave
Roborando sonos ut gluttura
Effligitent laude teque pura
Zelotica arte clament Ave
= IOSQVIN Des PREZ
Is the suggestion we should change the J back to an I, and the U back to a V? :-)
Regards, PML
The spelling of "des Prez" or "Desprez" is more or less entirely arbitrary, when you bear in mind that it is a *descriptor* ("the priest") rather than a surname, much like Jacob Clemens' tag of *non papa* ("not the pope"): Josquin was famous enough as a musician to be simply referred to by his first name without ambiguity. There is considerable debate about what his surname might have been. As for whether the discrepancy matters, I merely note that modern writers are infinitely fussier about orthography than their 15th century counterparts were. The CPDL page name is the same as the Library of Congress keyword, whereas the last time I checked I think Grove's Dictionary preferred "Desprez". An uncharitable conductor whom I know would point out at this stage the well-worn cliché: build a bridge, and get over it.
I take it that people *do* know there is an acrostic in the motet Illibata Dei virgo nutrix:
Illibata Dei virgo nutrix
Olimpi tu regis o genitrix
Sola parens verbi puerpera
Que fuisti Eve reparatrix
Viri nephas tuta mediatrix
Illud clara luce dat scriptura
Nata nati alma genitura
Des ut leta musorum factura
Prevaleat ymis et sit ave
Roborando sonos ut gluttura
Effligitent laude teque pura
Zelotica arte clament Ave
= IOSQVIN Des PREZ
Is the suggestion we should change the J back to an I, and the U back to a V? :-)
Regards, PML
Re: Josquin Desprez
Hi Philip, thanks for the acrostic, I wasn't aware of its existence!!
You're correct that "des prez" is a descriptor, but the explanation I know is somewhat different: "des prez" would be an old spelling of "des prés", meaning "of the prairies". If you check the French wikipedia you'll notice that they even write his name with the modern spelling.
Whether it should be written together or not is a matter of taste, just like it happens with the surname "Delalande" / "de Lalande" / "de la lande" (= "of the field").
You're correct that "des prez" is a descriptor, but the explanation I know is somewhat different: "des prez" would be an old spelling of "des prés", meaning "of the prairies". If you check the French wikipedia you'll notice that they even write his name with the modern spelling.
Whether it should be written together or not is a matter of taste, just like it happens with the surname "Delalande" / "de Lalande" / "de la lande" (= "of the field").
Re: Josquin Desprez
Thanks pml, for this contribution - I certainly won't decide which experts are right! 
I didn't know thatI take it that people *do* know there is an acrostic in the motet Illibata Dei virgo nutrix
Re: Josquin Desprez
Our rendering (Josquin des Prez) follow not only LoC, but also Wikipedia and several other sources. Moreover, this name is alphabetized (sorted) under J (Josquin), following current practice elsewhere. Another name frequently bandied about is Orlando di Lasso, also known as Orlandus Lassus, Roland di Lasso, Roland Delattre. And another, Jacob Handl versus Gallus. There are many more. In such cases, it is typical for us to have a redirect from an alternate to the composer page as titled at ChoralWiki. For example, typing "Desprez" in the search box takes one to the "Josquin des Prez" page.
The acrostic Philip mentions is indeed on the ChoralWiki page for the motet (I added that information back in December of 2006).
Chuck
The acrostic Philip mentions is indeed on the ChoralWiki page for the motet (I added that information back in December of 2006).
Chuck
Charles H. Giffen
CPDL Board of Directors Chair
Admin at & Manager of ChoralWiki
CPDL Board of Directors Chair
Admin at & Manager of ChoralWiki
Re: Josquin Desprez
Very cool about the acrostic (which I did not know)! If it weren't true, it would make a perfect April Fools' Day posting. CPDL should come up with a suitable announcement for April 1. Isn't that right around when we're expecting our few million in venture capital funding to come through?
Re: Josquin Desprez
There you go, you learn something every day :-)
For an even more bizarre example of how cunning people of the day were, I point you to the following rounds: Presidiorum Erogatrix and Presulem Ephebeatum by the Master of Krakow University, Petrus Wilhelmi de Grudencz. Here its the first letter of each word; apparently one of his other rounds fits in his entire name.
Back for a moment to Josquin, and for various reasons (such as that we don't know for certain his surname) it is indeed sensible to sort him under J. There is a modern day analogy with singers who are known by their stage-name, often a single word, whom it certainly wouldn't make sense to categorise under their real names or surnames. The text of the Illibata motet was specially written for Josquin so we can be fairly confident about that spelling – as much as we can be certain about anything five centuries old!
The bug-bear for me is di Lasso, given that the chap was Franco-Flemish and worked most of his life in Germany (despite numerous short stays in Italy) it seems quite absurd to call him by the Italianate name, but it has remained "stuck", when other such misnamings (T.L. da Vittoria, anyone?) have gradually given sway.
Cheers Filippo Matteo Legge
For an even more bizarre example of how cunning people of the day were, I point you to the following rounds: Presidiorum Erogatrix and Presulem Ephebeatum by the Master of Krakow University, Petrus Wilhelmi de Grudencz. Here its the first letter of each word; apparently one of his other rounds fits in his entire name.
Back for a moment to Josquin, and for various reasons (such as that we don't know for certain his surname) it is indeed sensible to sort him under J. There is a modern day analogy with singers who are known by their stage-name, often a single word, whom it certainly wouldn't make sense to categorise under their real names or surnames. The text of the Illibata motet was specially written for Josquin so we can be fairly confident about that spelling – as much as we can be certain about anything five centuries old!
The bug-bear for me is di Lasso, given that the chap was Franco-Flemish and worked most of his life in Germany (despite numerous short stays in Italy) it seems quite absurd to call him by the Italianate name, but it has remained "stuck", when other such misnamings (T.L. da Vittoria, anyone?) have gradually given sway.
Cheers Filippo Matteo Legge
Re: Josquin Desprez
That's amazing, are you looking for such things in every text your'e reading ?
Re: Josquin Desprez
No, that was a happy accident. Having fixed a voicing category clean-up problem for Vaarky I was browsing weird voicing categories (2 choirs, but only 6 voices) and found the version of Josquin's Ave Maria with the two extra parts contributed by an anonymous composer (possibly Ludwig Daser), which took me to the proper Ave Maria page, which I noticed was amongst other places transcribed in the Codex Speciálník, which I noticed now had it's own page in the Wiki, and when I looked there it cited an external website, which mentioned that this guy had done a similar acrostic trick to Josquin's, with four different “rotuli” or rounds citing the author as “Petrvs”.
Total coincidence!
Oh, and apparently Josquin actually did work for Cardinal d'Ascanio at one time in his career, which is the reasoning behind why we sometimes see ascriptions to "Josquin d'Ascanio" (= Josquin in d'Ascanio's service). Having done a little digging, there's also a parallel ascription of the original frottola posted above (In te Domine speravi) to one "Josquinus Pratensis" or some such, which again is telling us "Josquin (of the fields)".
Total coincidence!
Oh, and apparently Josquin actually did work for Cardinal d'Ascanio at one time in his career, which is the reasoning behind why we sometimes see ascriptions to "Josquin d'Ascanio" (= Josquin in d'Ascanio's service). Having done a little digging, there's also a parallel ascription of the original frottola posted above (In te Domine speravi) to one "Josquinus Pratensis" or some such, which again is telling us "Josquin (of the fields)".