How to present the Genre information

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carlos
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How to present the Genre information

Post by carlos »

Chuck started an interesting discussion here about whether genre info should be changed according to what is presented in the page. Currently, for instance, "Morning Canticles" are shown on the works page always in the plural, because they usually come in pairs (but not always as I've noticed), while other genres are usually shown in the singular (Motet, Villancico etc.). Chuck is suggesting that we should have a mechanism to change the way the genre is displayed according to the characteristic of the works on the page. So, for a single hymn, "Genre: Sacred, Hymn", but for a collection of hymns, "Genre: Sacred, Hymns". I find it quite complicated and would rather prefer a simpler approach, making all genres appear uniformly as either singular or plural. It would also reduce the page maintenance: imagine someone has just contributed a single aria from a new opera; the work page for it will have something like "Genre: Secular, Opera, Aria". When the contributor decides to add a second aria, we'd have to change the page to show "Genre: Secular, Opera, Arias", if I understood Chuck's reasoning correctly. If we display a standard "Genre: Secular, Operas, Arias" from the very start, this extra work is avoided.

I ask everyone to please give your opinions on this subject before I start any change to the Genre template. We admins are already in a small number here at CPDL, so every single opinion counts! Thanks
CHGiffen
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by CHGiffen »

Thanks Carlos. :)

I've given the matter more thought since initiating that discussion, and I find myself gradually moving towards Carlos's viewpoint that one form is enough - and that the form should be the plural (in the case of nouns). I think by the end of the day, I'd be happy enough withg Motets, Art songs, Evening canticles (by the way, why is "canticles" capitalized in the category? - Canticle is not a proper noun), etc. - although I think I would prefer Opera to Operas (after all, Opera is already a plural serves well in many other contexts to define the genre).

Chuck
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bobnotts
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by bobnotts »

I agree with Carlos - it would be simpler in my opinion to simply list the genre in its plural form, whatever that might be. As he suggested, we're not saying "this work is a motet", more "this work belongs to the motets genre"
although I think I would prefer Opera to Operas (after all, Opera is already a plural serves well in many other contexts to define the genre).
Hmm... what about if you were talking about a composer's works? Would you say "Benjamin Britten's operas are varied and not to everyone's taste" or "Benjamin Britten's opera..." I would say the first one.

I agree that the word "canticle" shouldn't have a capital letter.

Also, this has reminded me of something at the back of my mind - that the works currently categorised as "hymns" on CPDL span more than one genre in my opinion. We have the Christian hymns which are sung by the congregation and choir (at least in most churches) but there are also those texts described as "hymns" - Ave maris stella, for example. A setting of that text recently added has been labelled as a hymn by the contributor. I'll open up a new thread for discussion of this point when I get chance.

Off topic, but anyway: Carlos, would you mind adding "Requiems" to the genre template as a genre that requires a sort key in the template? I would do it myself but I'm afraid I'd break something as I don't understand all of the template.
Last edited by bobnotts on 19 Feb 2009 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
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CHGiffen
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by CHGiffen »

Rob, I think you are probably reopening the old Noel (Mjolnir) discussion about "Office hymns" and "Sequence hymns" with regard to texts like "Ave maris stella" ... There are even categories for these types of hymns (which have been tagged for cleanup by you back in October).

"Carols" is another confusing genre ... since some will think this might be a subcategory of "Christmas". But, in fact, there are several Easter carols and a few "summer carols" that I've heard of. Perhaps there are more. Some carols are sacred, some are secular (even amongst Christmas carols).

I agree about Britten's "operas". But I would suppose Wagner specialized in "opera", while Schubert specialized in "Lieder" - these seem to be genres, while the statement about Britten's operas is a statement about compositions. Oh well, it's probably not that big of a deal. :)

Chuck
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Richard Mix
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by Richard Mix »

What if the template read "Genre categories:(names)", sidestepping changing plurals to singulars? Otherwise we seem to be dealing one by one with cases like "Genre:Tenebrae responsorie". :idea:
DrewE
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by DrewE »

CHGiffen wrote:Rob, I think you are probably reopening the old Noel (Mjolnir) discussion about "Office hymns" and "Sequence hymns" with regard to texts like "Ave maris stella" ... There are even categories for these types of hymns (which have been tagged for cleanup by you back in October).

"Carols" is another confusing genre ... since some will think this might be a subcategory of "Christmas". But, in fact, there are several Easter carols and a few "summer carols" that I've heard of. Perhaps there are more. Some carols are sacred, some are secular (even amongst Christmas carols).

I agree about Britten's "operas". But I would suppose Wagner specialized in "opera", while Schubert specialized in "Lieder" - these seem to be genres, while the statement about Britten's operas is a statement about compositions. Oh well, it's probably not that big of a deal. :)

Chuck
But...Isaac Watts specialized in "hymn"? Rogers and Hammerstein in "musical"?

The distinction seems to be that, for some but not all genres, the singular is also used as a mass noun. There may be cases where a mass noun is distinct from both the singular and the plural forms. Isaac Watts specialized in "hymnody," perhaps, although I would not tend to think of hymnody as a genre. In another field of study, Robert Frost specialized in poetry (and wrote many poems); and here the distinction between the three forms is clear and well-defined.

It's not easy to stuff the inconsistent and arbitrary English language into neatly contained categories!
BarryJ
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by BarryJ »

Please see introduction to ChoralWiki:Subgenres, with counts at ChoralWiki:Subgenres/Counts.
1. Subgenres are still confused and confusing, but it appears the problem will continue to persist. It could be resolved if we could all agree on a classification (as implied in Carlos' first post above), but that does not seem possible. For example, is "motet" generic or specific? The classification would probably need to be hierarchical, which makes it much more complex. I have tried to construct such a classification, but nothing worked. So, I think we will not get resolution of this short of a standardized, enforced classification – certainly that would not be in the spirit of this website, and would result in more mis-categorization than we have now. Remember that inclusion of any category name in the Genre template results in the work being categorized there. Nonetheless, some cleanup is needed in the small details.
2. I do have a question, though, about genres (the first parameter of the Genre template). I need to remove the mistakes in assigning this parameter, but after that, there are seven remaining values that have been used for this field: 1. Sacred; 2. Secular; 3. Dual; 4. Both; 5. Other; 6. Unknown; and 7. (blank). Numbers 3 and 4 can be combined, under what name? In any case, there are many composer pages where implementation of {{#SortWorks:}} has assumed that works are either Sacred or Secular: these composer pages then are missing works assigned to Dual or Both. These composer pages would then need an added {{#SortWorks:!Sacred music&&!Secular music}}. The same can be said of numbers 5, 6, and 7. There may be a case for one of these, but I would like to have just one of them, reworded so that the definition is clearer ("Indeterminate"?) – and editors would not be allowed to leave this parameter blank.
3. I think "Dual" (or "Both") should be applied only to works that have both Secular and Sacred sections (or stanzas, or lines) – not pages that have editions in different genres. In the latter case, the {{Genre}} template should show the genre of the original work, and add "{{cat|Sacred music}}" or "{{cat|Secular music}}" in appropriate EdNotes template(s), or elsewhere.
4. Regarding singular vs. plural: I think both should be permitted as subgenres, with the code changed to allow the singular form to point to the (plural) category.
5. The Genre template should be removed entirely from works that inherently contain different subgenres (Cantatas, Masses, some Larger works, etc.) and the appropriate subgenre category assigned using {{cat}} in the movement (section) descriptions.
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by Richard Mix »

No. 1 I look at from the user's point of view: "Eucharistic song" is marginally valid as a 'genre', but very handy if one is searching repertory for weekly Exposition & Benediction services. There's also delight in finding that clicking on Svetilen can lead one to other examples, even when it's a red link that has to be viewed in preview mode (why is Polyphonic Lied- maybe more usefully "Tenor Lied"- empty, though?).

For No. 2, I wonder whether there is some nuance between "Dual" and "Both", that is, it might be both at once, or either one or the other, with a change of a word? We can probably agree Der Freischütz is secular, but the characters do pray to god; https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/O_T ... aditional) has the same first stanza as 'sacred' O Tannenbaum (which has Category:Christmas (secular) added at the bottom of the page, below "General information").

3 seems to assume the 'original' can be determined, or that "Unknown" will not be a maintenance category.

Point 4 sounds very good to me!

5. is a different discussion of work-page vs. 'Larger work', on which I don't think we see eye to eye yet.
BarryJ
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by BarryJ »

Thanks for the comments, Richard!
1 – I agree with "user's point of view". "Polyphonic Lied" should be "Polyphonic Lieder" (plural); this subgenre was there last year, but I cannot find it now. I should have omitted it in this year's list.
2 – I see your point about "only one word" changed between Sacred and Secular versions. There is a difference, no doubt, but I think this is better handled elsewhere than the Genre template. See Le thresor de musique (Orlando di Lasso), where the compiler-editor's clear intention is to change the words of Lasso's secular originals to sacred words. In this case, it is better on the work page to put Genre: Secular|Chansons, and then add cat|Sacred music to the (sacred) Text or to editions as appropriate. The work should be in both categories, while preserving the intentions of both Lasso and the 1576-82 compiler-editor. Then users can find it the work in either category or any combination of categories.
3 – "Unknown" is the default assigned to a genre nowadays when the page is created with blank Genre parameter 1. I think it can be selected in the add-work form. I will check to see if there are truly some works where Genre is really unknown. There are works where Genre is irrelevant, however, such as works not associated with words, which is why I would rather change "other" to "Indeterminate", making it clear that someone has looked at the work and decided that Genre could not be determined. To me, "unknown" is way too general a term, but probably still useful as a default, meaning "pending further investigation".
4 – Thank you!
5 – I made a mistake in writing this. I should have said, "If a work contains several different movements in different genres or subgenres, the Genre template should only include categories that apply to all movements (sections), and the differing genre or subgenre categories should be assigned using {{cat}} in the movement (section) descriptions. Examples include many cantatas and oratorios." The template MassText takes care of categorizing sections of a mass, right?
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by Richard Mix »

Ah, I understand 5: La Traviata should have the subgenre Operas, but Brindisi (or rather Drinking songs) would only be added to the Edition notes of an excerpt. In the absence of such an edition, would there be a way to search?
BarryJ
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by BarryJ »

Yes. {{cat|}} could be added to the Description, or even to a Pub template, if there is an appropriate one.
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carlos
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by carlos »

BarryJ wrote: 2. I do have a question, though, about genres (the first parameter of the Genre template). I need to remove the mistakes in assigning this parameter, but after that, there are seven remaining values that have been used for this field: 1. Sacred; 2. Secular; 3. Dual; 4. Both; 5. Other; 6. Unknown; and 7. (blank). ... The same can be said of numbers 5, 6, and 7. There may be a case for one of these, but I would like to have just one of them, reworded so that the definition is clearer ("Indeterminate"?) – and editors would not be allowed to leave this parameter blank.
I didn't know that this field was allowed to remain blank in the Add works form. Ideally contributors should be required to select one option from the drop-down list so as to avoid extra categorization work by other volunteers later on.
BarryJ wrote: 3. I think "Dual" (or "Both") should be applied only to works that have both Secular and Sacred sections (or stanzas, or lines) – not pages that have editions in different genres. In the latter case, the {{Genre}} template should show the genre of the original work, and add "{{cat|Sacred music}}" or "{{cat|Secular music}}" in appropriate EdNotes template(s), or elsewhere.
Regarding Dual/Both, I see a subtle difference between them: as you said, a work may contain sections that are Sacred while others are Secular in nature. I would tend to use "Dual" in this case, while I'd use "Both" for Secular works that later received a Sacred text and both lyrics are provided on the same Edition. As to the use of the {{Genre}} template, we already do something similar with the Voicing template: in the "General Information" section it usually displays (or should) only the original voicing; if someone posts an arrangement with a different voicing, this info goes in the Edition notes field using {{vcat}}. I think the same could be done with Genre.
BarryJ wrote: 4. Regarding singular vs. plural: I think both should be permitted as subgenres, with the code changed to allow the singular form to point to the (plural) category.
From a technical point of view, this is much easier to implement now. I wouldn't oppose to such change.
BarryJ
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by BarryJ »

I just went through 27 work pages with Genre|Unknown – it is as I suspected. There aren't any really "unknown" ones, not any more at least.
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by Claude_T »

Thanks, Barry ;-)
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Re: How to present the Genre information

Post by BarryJ »

1. I went through all the works with Genre|Other. All of them were converted to other values for Genre; there were several that appeared to need new values. I propose we add these two as Genres:
Textless – For works originally without words, and Genre cannot be otherwise determined by the context (also see the template Textless)
Indeterminate – The words were present originally, but the words are meaningless and there are no clues for otherwise determining Genre
I have created categories for these two, and could add them to Template:Genre after further discussion.

2. At the moment, Template:Genre only has Sacred, Secular, Dual, and Both; so all work pages are in one of these categories (except the few in the above Textless or Indeterminate). This Template is open-ended, that is, any value is allowed for any parameter, necessitating manual cleanup for non-standard values. Is this the way you want it in future?

2. The only definition I could find for “Sacred” was in the header for Category:Sacred music: “works which have been composed or performed either for religious use or through religious influence.” Are there other definitions buried somewhere? If this is the only one, it needs expansion and rewording. Does this definition include Hindu or Buddhist religious music? Or music praising Greek gods? I believe the original intention at CPDL was to define "Sacred music" as Christian religious music, and that is the sense that most editors would assume. I know I have assumed that for quite a while.

4. Category: Genre includes some Subcategories that should be moved or redesigned:
Children’s songs – Properly (already is) a Subgenre, especially since they could be Sacred or Secular
Educationals – Properly a Subgenre, perhaps better reworded (“Music for educational use”) – not a word in dictionaries I know
Sacred music by season – Properly a Subcategory of Sacred music (not a Subgenre)
And Category:Genre doesn’t include “Both”, as a Subcategory. Also, many subcategories of Sacred music should also be subcategories of Secular music, and vice versa.
Barry Johnston
Gunnison, U. S. A.
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