HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

CPDL topics that don't fit in the other categories
avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 22 Apr 2010 02:55

Hi all,

I have set up a new wiki, http://www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/ (AveWiki) which is intended to be somewhat parallel with http://www.cpdl.org, but limited specifically for Ave Maria compositions. I don't intend this to be competition for cpdl.org, but complimenting. Ave Maria compositions are only partially a subset of the choralwiki goal setting, because there are many non-choral settings, e.g. solo voice and instrumental settings. The intent of my listing is also more comprehensive insofar that I do include non-public-domain copyrighted works as well.

cpdl.org has currently 100 Ave Marias listed. I have over 3000 listings, with about 2000 of them documented with scores, MIDI, MP3 or videos files. The choral settings (I'd say off-hand about 1000) could probably be cross-linked into cpdl.org, while the rest (solovoice and instrumental) would IMO not be consistent with the CHORAL-wiki purpose.

Rafael Ornes helped me getting the WikiMedia software, and I have set it up yesterday.
I have an empty AveWiki and little idea what to do with it now, i.e. how to go about this to get the information from my regular website http://www.avemariasongs.org ( basically organized as a table and individual pages for each song, using FrontPage) into a Wiki format.

I have taken a look at the source code of some of the cpdl pages but I find myself stumped.
I was hoping that some of the administrators at cpdl.org might help me getting this going?
I would appreciate your help.
Geert

vaarky
Moderator
Posts: 1986
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 07:28

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby vaarky » 22 Apr 2010 06:24

Thanks for your inquiry. Hopefully some of the participants here can volunteer to help with your site. I did, however,want to chime in to clarify a few things about the scope of CPDL.

Ave Maria compositions are only partially a subset of the choralwiki goal setting, because there are many non-choral settings, e.g. solo voice and instrumental settings. The intent of my listing is also more comprehensive insofar that I do include non-public-domain copyrighted works as well.

[...]The choral settings (I'd say off-hand about 1000) could probably be cross-linked into cpdl.org, while the rest (solovoice and instrumental) would IMO not be consistent with the CHORAL-wiki purpose.


First, CPDL is not restricted to public domain works, and part of CPDL's purpose is to host copyrighted works as well if properly authorized by the license holder and free to use under terms similar to the CPDL-style copyright license.

Second, CPDL does include unison and solo vocal pieces too, though you are right that the purely instrumental ones would be outside the scope CPDL.

So there's more overlap than you think. Best wishes on your project!

avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 10 May 2010 19:50

Hi again,

I have input some 500 composers already in AveWiki.

Would anyone of the CPDL admins come have a look how to go about importing those pages into CPDL?
I have used the same naming convention for the composers as CPDL, so it shouldn't require too much of a clean-up afterwards to make these pages fit into the CPDL system. However, there are some composers in common, and I don't want to go overwriting existing pages.

You can email me info [ at ] avemariasongs ( dot ) org

Thanks
Geert

carlos
Site Admin
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Location: São Paulo, Brasil

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby carlos » 12 May 2010 00:51

Hi Geert, thanks for your kind offer. At CPDL, composer pages are required only when at least one work by them is posted, otherwise they become quite useless. Because of this, I don't see the need to proceed to a mass importing of composers at this moment. These pages can be imported gradually, as they become necessary. Would that be fine with you?

avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 12 May 2010 03:46

Hi Carlos,
I have almost 600 composers listed right now. 99.5% of those listings are referenced.
(326) of those 600 are in the "hosted" category, meaning that they are documented.
The composer pages include the work listing, with external links to the corresponding pages in my Ave Maria website.
There are many pages in CPDL that are listed only with external links.

All in all, I have well over 3000 composers, with about 2000 of them documented, and about half of that documented with a downloadable score which are the ones that CPDL is interested in. I have included additional categories (score compositions) on the composer pages that make it easier to call up only those.
I would think it is easier and faster to import en masse from such subgroup and then deleting some pages, than to copy one page at a time. But it's your call.

Please discuss with the other CPDL administrators and let me know what you decide. No hard feelings either way.

If CPDL is not interested in mass importing the pages, please confirm that to me.
In that case, I'll switch over to the IMSLP naming system (last name comma given names) because I personally find the composer listings harder to read if I have to go looking for the sorted name in the middle of the lines in that listing.
TTYL

vaarky
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Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby vaarky » 12 May 2010 04:16

Thanks very much for the further information, and the kind offer. Can you give us a sense of when you'd like to hear back about this before you decide on whether to change the naming scheme?

carlos
Site Admin
Posts: 1797
Joined: 19 Aug 2008 15:26
Location: São Paulo, Brasil

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby carlos » 12 May 2010 05:02

Geert, I'd suggest that you choose for AveWiki the naming system that you find more useful, and don't worry right now about CPDL's decision (which may take some time until we discuss all its aspects). Whichever system you choose will be fine, because the importing script can easily convert from the format used by IMSLP to the one used on CPDL.

For me, another source of concern is related to copyright. I suppose that a good percentage of these 1000 composers with downloadable scores that you list are modern composers (20th century). In order to create works pages for their Ave Marias, CPDL would need to check for their copyright status and whether the composers allow for their works to be indexed elsewhere. Even for works already in public domain, we'd need to get the authorization from each editor/typesetter. In this aspect also a one-by-one importing would be safer. But this is just my uninformed opinion, we'll have to check this with our attorney.

I'm replying to your email with some technical tips that may help you. Sorry for not being able to help you more right now.

avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 12 May 2010 06:24

Sorry, I didn't intend to rush you guys into a decision. Take the time to discuss it between you admins.

I'll eventually need to make redirect pages in either system to cover name searches according the other system anyway, which means that I'll need to make double pages either way. If there's a chance that CPDL wants to import the pages, I can wait to do that until I've input everything (that'll be several months away) and switch the code to the other page after you've imported what you want. So I can wait a while longer and continue the way I am now.

I have thought about it both ways, and haven't really ultimately decided which way to go. The Wikipedia also works with the same naming convention as CPDL, and there is advantage in having consistency with as many other wikis as possible.

I assume there is a way to program the name display that it shows (Last name comma given names) in all the listings while the actual page name remains according to the CPDL name system (given names underscore last name), but I haven't figured that one out yet. This is a new programming language for me, and I'm not as quick on the uptake as I used to be. :?

RE: copyright:
I am aware of copyright restrictions. Downloadable means it is either public domain, or that I have obtained express permission from the composer to make a score available for free download, consistent with the way CPDL handles this issue. I do not make fee-for-copyright documentation available on my website. I make it a point to include links to publisher websites where scores and MP3s can be legally purchased.
Carlos has a point about the indexing etc. I have put a lot of effort into contacting composers and publishers over the past few years. I request them to review their page(s) and invite comments if they want any changes made to their pages. Many are sending me published scores (sometimes only a demo, quite often complete scores) because they see my pages as free publicity, but I do not make those copyrighted scores available on the website.
Maybe I need to emphasize that all I have on the AveWiki pages that you'd be importing is work listings (only Ave Maria settings of course) with an external link to my 'old' website. There are absolutely no downloadable files included or uploaded to CPDL with those pages. That, - I agree and recommend - would better be done individually after you do your own copyright review + other reviews as well if you decide you want files on the CPDL server. FYI, I have almost no downloadable files on my server besides the MIDI and NWC files that I made myself. Most of the downloadable scores on my websites come though external links. CPDL uses external linking for many listed songs too.
Nowadays I send visitors to external websites, rather than hot-linking to the files on other servers. I used to hot-link a lot more in the past, but that is being phased out as I go through the pages again.
You admins probably need to visit AveWiki and take a look at a few of the composer pages, so you can get an impression of what I do there (still very much a work in progress!), how I present my information, and how well or how little that fits in the CPDL system that does use external linking. When you visit, do check out the main page, where I have commented on the similarities and differences between CPDL and AveWiki.
Depending on the outcome of your visit, you will decide if you want to include (some of) my information in CPDL or not; and if yes, how you will most effectively tranfer that information.
The point of this all being: whatever does fit in the CPDL system you are welcome to import or reference or however you want to handle it. I'll continue do my thing with AveWiki, for the simple reason that AveWiki doesn't 100% fit within the CPDL constraints ( no offense intended with that, our goals and purposes are different) but I do believe that an extensive interconnection or cross-referencing for those songs that we do have in common would benefit both wikis.

vaarky
Moderator
Posts: 1986
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 07:28

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby vaarky » 12 May 2010 19:26

Thanks for the additional information.

BTW, regarding http://www.avemariasongs.org/aves/D/Desprez2.htm, the piece you ask for help in identifying from the music in the midi is Josquin's Ave Verum Corpus a 4, a very nice piece.

avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 13 May 2010 00:24

Thanks for the tip on the Ave Verum Corpus.
I guess that file was mislabeled wherever I may have found it so many years ago. I'll remove it from my listing.

That is the definite downside of specializing my interest into the Ave Maria, I can't ID very many choral works outside that. :?

vaarky
Moderator
Posts: 1986
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 07:28

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby vaarky » 13 May 2010 00:48

I know what you mean--I obsess primarily over Renaissance sacred music, and there are pockets of music I have little experience with.

I should have typed Ave Christe, not Ave Verum for the mystery piece--my error.

avemariasongs
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Apr 2010 02:36

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby avemariasongs » 13 May 2010 00:51

Would that by any chance mean that you can read the music notation of the manuscripts of that time?
I have a number of 13th-14th century Ave Maria manuscripts that I'd love to get 'translated' into modern music notation.
:)

vaarky
Moderator
Posts: 1986
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 07:28

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby vaarky » 13 May 2010 15:53

I only have practice reading modern transcriptions, but there are others on CPDL who can read the early notation.

Cdalitz
Posts: 142
Joined: 24 Apr 2007 14:42

Re: HELP requested, AveWiki www.avemariasongs.org/wiki/

Postby Cdalitz » 14 May 2010 08:41

I have a number of 13th-14th century Ave Maria manuscripts that I'd love to get 'translated' into modern music notation.


While manuscripts can be tricky, the introduction to printed white mensural notation by Ross W. Duffin is a very useful resource. See the "Notation Manual" under "Other Online Resources" on Ross' website:
http://music.case.edu/~rwd/

Hope this helps,

Chris


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