PubDatePlace, Volumes and MultiPubList

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Nikolaus Hold
Posts: 31
Joined: 13 Jul 2016 10:47

PubDatePlace, Volumes and MultiPubList

Post by Nikolaus Hold » 24 Jan 2020 16:53

The following is my opinion; you are welcome to have another. But let me express my opinion without taking it badly.

1. I find the interaction between the templates {{Pub}} and {{MultiPubList}} awesome and a wonderful enrichment for the CPLD.

2. I don't like the template {{Volumes}} that much.
  1. I have learned that {{PubDatePlace}} is required to use {{MultiPubList}}. The additional {{Volumes}} list is redundant in terms of volume and year and does not look good, see page: Heinrich Schütz: Sämtliche Werke.
    It gets worse if the additional information is too much for the {{Volumes}} parameters and an additional table is needed, see page: Teutsche Liedlein (Georg Forster).
  • There is at least one case that cannot be handled with {{Volumes}}:
    Das Chorwerk, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Chorwerk und https://imslp.org/wiki/Das_Chorwerk.
    It has 144 Hefte (booklets); too many for {{Volumes}}, (and even has a double booklet 78/79).
    I have already considered whether it could not be divided between booklets before and after World War II, so that the CPLD page does not get too big. But that's no use, the limit of 50 volumes would still be exceeded. And I am in no way in favor of increasing this limit.
3. I wonder if you can't do without {{Volumes}} by expanding {{PubDatePlace}} accordingly and at the same time abolishing the function {{MultiPubList}} creating more than one table. Certainly this is rarely been used so far and is not particularly useful. Multiple {{MultiPubList}} lines can be easily created with copy & past and adjusted manually. You may then enter text for the individual headings at pleasure. However, the prerequisite would be that {{MultiPubList}} be extended by an optional "vol=" parameter, so that the year is not the only key for filtering the corresponding links.

Regards

BarryJ
Posts: 75
Joined: 03 May 2014 03:33
Location: Gunnison, Colorado, USA

Re: PubDatePlace, Volumes and MultiPubList

Post by BarryJ » 27 Jan 2020 16:26

Thank you for your careful analysis. It is very relevant and very much appreciated.
  1. Thank you!
  2. I don't like the template {{Volumes}} that much.
    I agree, I'm not very happy with {{Volumes}}, though it took me a long time to write. It was designed specifically for Heinrich Schütz' Sämtliche Werke, though. How would you like this page to appear?
    There are several factors that need to be considered:
    • Currently Volumes is not user-friendly, it takes a lot of effort to set it up.
    • As you point out, {{PubDatePlace}} is redundant.
    • Volumes is limited to 50, while there shouldn't be a limit. (But recursion functions are not available)
    • There are currently 25 publication pages using Volumes, with at least 20 more needing to be added.
    • There are 15 or more pages that have several volumes, each of which has several editions. In some of these, the editions are unnumbered, distinguished by date for the most part, though a few have several editions in the same year.
    • There is at least one case of works with the same title appearing in different volumes of the same publication.
  3. I wonder if you can't do without {{Volumes}} by expanding {{PubDatePlace}} accordingly and at the same time abolishing the function {{MultiPubList}} creating more than one table.
    This sounds possible, in theory at least. Let me work on it. Some ideas I have, derived in part by your suggestions:
    • {{Volumes}} and {{PubDatePlace]] should be combined when necessary.
    • Construct a form for this purpose, to make it easier for users.
    • Addition of volume and edition data to each work page would still be required.
    • As you suggest, make vol (and edn) options for columns in the MultiPubList table. Do you want all works to appear in the same table, then? (This would likely require standardizing publication titles, limiting the use of punctuation marks and certain other characters. I have tried this before, and there was a lot of kickback.)
Barry Johnston
Gunnison, U. S. A.

Nikolaus Hold
Posts: 31
Joined: 13 Jul 2016 10:47

Re: PubDatePlace, Volumes and MultiPubList

Post by Nikolaus Hold » 27 Jan 2020 23:35

Heinrich Schütz's Sämtliche Werke ... How would you like this page to appear?
For the first time I took a really close look at the source code of Heinrich Schütz: Sämtliche Werke and discovered that an undocumented 3rd parameter of the template {{MultiPubList}} is being used. Maybe this corresponds exactly to the "vol=" parameter I miss, so all my problems may disappear (at least if the parameter still works if I omit the {{Volumes}} template)!

If I should still express a 'like':
In my opinion, everything can stay as it is, except for the initial listing of the "Publication date and place" and "Volumes". It needs exactly twice as many lines as required, and a lot of space is wasted on the bold "Publication date and place:"s. It would look much nicer as a table, as indicated in the appendix: Schütz_Publications.jpg
Do you want all works to appear in the same table, then?
No, I would like to have a separate table for each volume with headings at pleasure, exactly as done in the Heinrich Schütz: Sämtliche Werke page. The "vol=" parameter was not intended for a table column, but for the selection of the works of a volume.
volume and edition data; (and edn) options
With all the tables of contents that I have created for song books so far, I have never struggled with editions. See e.g. Sammlung von Volksgesängen für den gemischten Chor (Ignaz Heim). The title page shown refers to the 30th edition. If you wanted to track down and list all editions ever printed, that would either be impossible or at least far too laborious for a non-fanatic. I have always limited myself to one edition representing everyone.

Only in one case was one of the tables of contents drilled out to cover 2 editions. And who did that? a certain BarryJ :-)
Besides, as you can read in the description, there are at least 35 editions. And none of the work pages have 2 {{Pub}} lines for "Das Rütli", even if the song is available in both editions. Who would really want to check in 35 editions, if that song is included? Theoretically conceivable, but practically completely unrealistic if you don't have a paid life position for it.

So if you really want to list editions of works, I see the best place for it at the beginning of the publication page. I took the trouble to enter a few examples in a table (see attachment Volumes.ods) - a Gedankenexperiment with fictional templates {{PubDateHead}}, {{PubDateVol}, {{PubDateEdit}} and {{PubDateFoot}} instead of {{PubDatePlace}}; the names speak for themselves. But it's just a quick shot for of brainstorming.

Regards
Attachments
Schütz_Publications.jpg
Volumes.ods
(18.64 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

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